Roland and Hannelore (Jentzsch) Koschnicke, members in Bischofswerda, courtesy of Jeff Lindgren

Thank you to Jeff Lindgren and the Koschnickes for recording this interview. The interview is in German with an English transcript (translation and transcription courtesy of Jeff Lindgren). Listen to their lovely native Saechsisch language as they tell their story of growing up Mormonen in The German Democratic Republic, their recollections of the formation of stakes, the building of the Freiberg Temple, interactions with members from other Warsaw Pact nations, run-ins with the Stasi, discoveries from their own Stasi Files, life during and after Die Wende, and much more.

For photos from their life in East Germany click here.

See photos they shared from their life before Die Wende here.

The book In Harm's Way, East German Latter-Day Saints, is referenced in the transcript and has more information about members of the Church fleeing East Prussia and other areas in the East the Germans fled after World War II.

Click here for information about the "Russentod" device that the East Germans used to counter Soviet signal-blocking of West German TV and radio transmissions. 

If you are a returned missionary from the Germany Dresden Mission and wish to be interviewed for this project, please contact me at Dresden Mission Connect and Reflect Podcast on Facebook.

Update your contact information, find old friends and companions, and much more on the Dresden/Leipzig mission alumni page at Treffpunkt Deutschland Mission Dresden/Leipzig

Returned Dresden missionaries, click here for more information about the Church History Library and information about sharing your documents, photos, or oral histories from your service in the Dresden Mission. The Church’s policy on public access to donated personal history items can be read here. To communicate to someone directly about donating your mission materials, contact James Miller: jamiller@churchofjesuschrist.org.

Transcript

Koschnike Interview - English Transcription

1/12/2024

Translated by Jeff Lindgren from the audio recording

[I have added clarifying comments or text in brackets, as I show with this sentence].

Jeff Lindgren (J)

My name is Jeff Lindgren. This evening I have the honor of speaking with Roland Koschnike and his wife Hannelora Koschnike, who live in Bischofswerda in Saxony, Germany. They are visiting relatives in the US and we managed to meet in person.

I am interested in history, especially in connection with Germany, where my family comes from, and also in particular in the experiences of the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who lived there during the GDR (German Democratic Republic) era. I speak German as a second language and it has been a long time since I have spoken it for a longer period of time. That shouldn't matter tonight since we want to hear from the Koschnikes and I'm just asking questions. At least that's the plan.

In the last few days, Roland and I found out that his great-aunt Martha was close friends with my great-grandparents and that my grandmother was named after her when my grandmother Martha (Pronounced Marta in German and Martha in English) was born in Dresden in the 1920s.

Please tell us where you come from and something about your family background as children.

Hannelora Koschnike (H)

We’re from Bishofswerda and I was born in Mittweida which is near Chemnitz [then named Karl-Marx Stadt] in 1954.  We experienced the GDR time.  We were married in 1977.  

J

What is your maiden name? 

H

Jentzsch.  In the Mittweida congregation I am one of the Jentzsches, child number three of Johannes and Charlotte Jentzsch.  

J

And you?

Roland Koschnike (R)

I was born in Demitz-Thumitz near Bischofswerda, a small village in 1952.  Koschnike is my name and the name of my father.  My mothers family name was Frentzel.

J

For those who don’t know, Bishofswerda is approximately 30 minutes from Dresden.

R

Yes, in the direction of Goerlitz, that is located a bit further away on the Polish border.

J

How did you get to know each other, date, and then get married?

H

There was a church youth conference and I saw him and thought “who is that?”  There were seldom evening dances.  Normally there were two, three days, or a week and we slept in the church house, with girls and boys in separate locations in the church. And so at the youth conferences that was the opportunity for us to get to know each other.  That was in Dresden, because Dresden was the largest congregation.  We also had youth conferences in Schwartzenberg in Erzgebirge (the Ore Mountains that are on the south side of Saxony on the border with Czechoslovakia).  I was in the Karl-Marx District and he was in the Dresden District.  They were separate, but later they became one stake.

R

It was always part of the East German Mission.  At that time there was at least one time a year a mission-wide youth conference was held.

H

Normally there was one at Easter and one at New Years.  There weren't a lot of youth at that time.  It was a small congregation.  We got to know each other at a New Year's youth conference in Dresden.  Then we got married in May.

J

Where did you get married?

H

In Mittweida.  It was custom back then that the place where the woman was from would be where the wedding would occur, but not always.  We had a Polterabend.  A few days before the wedding, sometimes two days before, all the friends and coworkers who were invited would come together.  I believe that we had 110 people there for it.  There was a huge noise as everyone threw dishes on the ground to break them.  This is done because “shards bring luck”.  It is the first thing that the woman does along with her soon to be husband to clean up the broken dishes.  Sarah also did that here in the USA when she was married because her mother-in-law found out that it was what Germans do [as a marriage tradition].  She wanted Sarah to feel good and feel like it was where she came from.  The mother-in-law bought a large amount of old dishes and the relatives looked at the large pile on the table and asked what was going on.  She showed them how to throw them at the ground, and then the crashing started.

J

What did you learn at school and what did you do for a living when you left school?

H

I was in school from the first through the 10th grade, then I went to a polytechnic high school.  That is how it normally was done then, although some could leave after 9th grade.  But most continued through the 10th grade.  There was also then the gymnasium for the 11th and 12th grades (another school) and would then get an Abitur (degree).  I got a Realabschluss (degree) after the tenth grade and then I learned how to be a Business Buyer/Book Keeper in a factory for two years.  We had to work in multiple offices, then also do school classes together to learn the trade.  Two days work then three days in the school.

J

So you learned both at work and in school.

H

In the office, the practical and in the school the theory.  So it was nicely combined.  When I was done, I then received 320 Mark per month.  That was my first wage.

J

You were rich then! 

H

So what could I do with that?  I bought myself a jacket.

J

Did you then go right to work.

H

Yes. And the company where I had learned took me on full time.

J

And with Roland, there had to be something to do with the law right? I saw the Roland [statue] in Nordhausen by the court and it had something to do with the law.  [This is an allusion to the statue of the mythological Roland that are placed in some towns in Germany near the market square or city hall.  Roland statues are mainly in cities that used Saxon Law.]

R 

That would have been nice, but . . .

J

Not in the DDR.

R

For a member of the church - not possible.

I also was in school until the tenth grade.  Then I started an apprenticeship and learned how to be a tool maker for 2 ½ years using the old methods with everything done by hand.  We had two years in the teaching workshop so we learned all the special skills with machines.  There were no CNC [computer numerical control] machines then and everything was measured manually.  The last ½ year then we were put to work making tools in production work.  In my experience a tool maker needs approximately 5 years minimum until he could understand how to do the work at that time.  Now it is a bit more simple because of CNC technology and it is easier.  

J

What did you do in the factory for your trade?

R

I mainly made cutting tools; stand tools.  And also stand templates.  Nowadays that isn’t done anymore since lasers are used for cutting or other methods.

I worked at a factory for another year, then I went into the army.

J

It was a duty back then.  One was required to do that.

R

The government requirement was 1 ½ years, but I was in for longer - 3 years.  I was with the airforce and was an airplane mechanic, but only for rescue and security.  I worked on catapult seats.  

But my trade earned 100 Mark more than my wife...  

J

In the army?  

R

No, after my time in the army when I worked at a factory.  In the army I earned more.  With the airforce they only took those with good education.  

Those in the air force they had a whole different attitude.  They joined the SED (the communist party) so they had more advantages.  With these people one could talk with them, including about the church.  They were intelligent and it was all about being able to fly airplanes as a pilot.  All of the pilots were high officers, but they just wanted to fly and didn’t care about the party.  

In a half year I was trained then I was in the non-commissioned officer training school and it was serious technical training.  The training was mainly for rescue and security.  I then joined the unit in Bautzen.  The training school was in Kamenz.

J

Where my great grandfather was in the army?

R

In the same barracks where he was.  During the first world war! And there was an airport adjoining.

I then went to Bautzen since I did well in the army school.  I was then a mechanic for half a year, then became a lead mechanic.  I can’t complain about my time in the service.  In the service politics was pushed to the side.

J

After your time in the army did you go back to Bischofswerda?

R

Yes, to a factory that did production work for a plant that manufactured combine harvester machines [used to harvest and process grain].  There were 3,000 employees.  I then worked again as a toolmaker, specifically a boring [milling] machine worker.

J

Let's talk about what each of you experienced growing up in a communist country and also being members of the Church of Jesus Christ.

I don’t know if we have enough time to cover all of that!

R

There was a difference, also in the GDR.  Hannelora lived in the west where they could watch TV and hear radio stations that were in West Germany.

J

I must explain that when he talks about the west, he means west Saxony, not West Germany.

R

We were in east Saxony.  We didn’t have any stations that we could get from West Germany.  Because of that there was a difference.

H

We knew more of what was really going on in the world.

My father never looked at East German news.  It was always West German news.

The Russians tried to disrupt the TV signals coming from the west. And my father had a business, he was a master coppersmith and heater builder.  He worked with a lot of copper.  His friend was very intelligent and he was also self-employed and had developed motors and such things.  He had made a "Russentod", which was a vessel made with a coil inside that was to counter the Russian signal disruptions of the west television transmissions.  The man didn’t have the materials and my father did have materials, and the man had the idea, so they got together and built it together.  It was very secret and no one was allowed to say anything about it and it was carefully hidden.  Using the coil in it it was able to make the television transmissions come through.  But no one was allowed to know about the device, except for very good friends that they were sure they could trust that wouldn’t betray them.  And so we were able to see television out of the west [from West Germany].  [Sounds like it was a custom-built antenna with a booster to amplify the weakened signal]. 

R

They had it nice where they were [Mittweide].  Where we were [Bischofswerda], we were in the deepest part of the east.

H

So are the things that one had to deal with then.  At that time there were regular shortages then.  There was a lot of bartering going on.  So it was as we were growing up.  That’s how we helped each other out.

J

Was it that way only in the church or all around.

H

It was that way all around.  We all helped each other out. My father had a phone.  Most didn’t have a phone.  My father was allowed to have a phone because it was needed for his business.  [She then explains that they would receive calls for many of their neighborhood.]  

J

You were the telephone place for the whole street.

H

Yes.

R

At that time there were advantages they had.  The children also had some advantages.  The teachers at school knew that if they had a problem with their heating equipment they would have to call the Jentzsch Company.  

H

[Because of that] the teachers then didn’t usually trust themselves enough to bug the [Jentzsch] children about their church membership.  It was to our advantage. 

R

With us it was a bit different.  My father [Heinz Koschnike] was the congregation (branch) president.  With the building of the branch house, my father was known in our town.

J 

He wasn’t quiet then.

R

My family came from Breslau [to Mittweida] in 1947 and in 1949 he was called on a mission.  [They left Breslau since Germans were expelled from what had been German land that was then given to Poland after the Russians took parts of eastern Poland.  You can read about the experiences of the saints in their Breslau congregation during WWII here:  https://rsc.byu.edu/harms-way/breslau-south-branch-breslau-district where Roland’s father Heinz Koschnike is extensively quoted].  There were still missionaries of the church in [East Germany] until around 1960 and then it was forbidden.  The missionaries during that time were severely persecuted.  Kicked out of one city, then they would go to another.  My father was called on a mission with the task of leading the Bischofswerda Congregation.  Most of those in Bischofswerda were those who had come from Breslau.  Others had already left for West Germany and the USA, including my great aunt.

J

She was in Salt Lake City living by my grandma, and her daughter was there too.

R

My father was called [by the church], but his calling lasted for 20 years!

J

Not five?

R

Nope, 20 years!  

My father was not pleased with the communists.  And about the church he was very clear and objectively stated [his support] for the church.  It was well known there that that is what the Koschnikes were.  Each teacher in the school knew that.  We were of the opinion that they could say what they wanted, but it didn’t matter.  My father always said, let them talk, but it isn’t relevant because you and God are always in the majority.

J

For sure.

Did he have experiences with the Stasi?

R

After the change (1989) he did talk about that.  Also my mother.  But during the GDR time he didn’t say anything about that.  Nor did my mother.

J

For safety.    

R

Yes, because my mother knew it was required to protect their children.  He was always sworn to secrecy [after interrogation by the Stasi].

I know that one year a couple days after Christmas there were two civilians who appeared at the door. My father then said “I must go with them right away.”  He didn’t come back until two or three days after New Years Day.  It all had to do with the church and the building of the branch house [in Bischofswerda]. 

J

They wanted to ask him some questions about the church.

R

They wanted to make him withdraw his application to build a church house.  He always referred to the point that in the GDR there was freedom of religion.  It was included specifically and fundamentally in the constitution, but no one had read it! He had obtained a copy, I don’t know how, and referred to it and said that in the constitution the freedom of religion clause means that one could participate in a congregation and go to a church house to exercise one's religion.  He ultimately received permission to build the church house.  The church was not allowed to acquire any land.  My father had his own piece of land, so he said - I am allowed to build the church on my own land.  The government then said that he couldn’t build anything new.  On his piece of ground there was a stable building.  He said, ok, but we can rebuild the stable.  The walls weren’t retained, but the foundation and foundation walls remained and were very solid and the church house was built on top of them.

J 

The church building is still there and is still in use for the congregation.  

R

In 1969 it was finished.  It took three years to build.  I can really say “we” built it, since as a child it was me too.  I believe at that time the church required the congregation to pay 30% - 35% of the cost to build the building.  We did a lot of the construction ourselves as members. 

J

At that time it was similar for members throughout the world when a new church house was built.

R

Three years to build, mainly due to material unavailability [affecting how fast it could be built].  The GDR was a scarcity economy.  The local members of the party asked, what is going on, but they couldn’t say anything to stop it.  They complained about how hard it was to build their own party building, but the Mormons were building one.  The Lutheran Church fought against it being constructed.  They also [later] fought against the temple [in Freiberg] being built.  

High up in the government there was one in a government bureau who was responsible for church issues, and for the construction of the temple. The Lutherans stated their opposition to him.  The leader of that bureau stated that each religion was to be treated equally.  So the matter was laid to rest.

There were advantages.  One can’t say that there were only disadvantages.  In 1969 the church house [in Bischofswerda] was opened.  In 1969 Apostle Monson came to Görlitz to the district conference.  It was a big event.  In 1972 the church house [in Bischofswerda] was dedicated by Elder Simpson, a member of The Seventy. That was also a big event.  As much as I know, that is the first church house in the GDR that was owned by the church and dedicated by the church.

J

And Sister Koschnike, what do you want to tell us about that?  About the church in the GDR.

H

I remember when my oldest brother, who was a sanitary engineer and worked in Chemnitz, told us - “Hey, know what? We have seen documents that we have to protect, and written on them is “Temple of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”.  He was in a large production office.  We said, that can't be true, it must be a church house.  This was in the 1980’s when there were several latter day saint church houses being built - Chemnitz, Leipzig, others.  We told him - baloney.  My father asked a church leader about a temple in Freiburg.  He was very quiet and said we are not allowed to talk about that.  My father was surprised, then it was made known to everyone.  That was great!  So we found out a temple would be built.

R

The stake presidency knew, but couldn’t talk about it until everything was approved.

J

And for the benefit of those who are listening, at that time there was no temple behind the iron curtain.  Permission to leave the GDR to go to a capitalist country was not allowed, unless one was retired.  The retirees would go to the temple in Switzerland and there was a fund that was made in the church to help them to do that.

R

After around 1961 one could not leave the GDR, even to go to the temple.

My father and mother, the congregation in Hamburg, was going to help my family with six children and parents to go to the temple, but the wall went up and it was no longer allowed.

J

From what I heard, in the church, most leaders of the church had never been to the temple. 

R

When the first stake was founded by Elder Monson in 1981 - before that it was the East German Mission - it was called the Freiberg Stake.  My father was first counselor, Brother Doerlitz was second counselor, and Brother Apel was stake president.  Elder Monson said that it was historic and had never been such in the church that a stake presidency and stake high council had been ordained as high priests without having first been through the temple.  

The government was then asked if the stake presidency could go to the temple, and permission was given.  But only a married couple could leave the GDR temporarily to go to the temple [not the whole family].  In 1984, as part of the church autumn general conference in Salt Lake City, my parents went through the Jordan River Temple to receive their endowment and be sealed.  At that time Elder Monson was second counselor in the church's first presidency.  He had always said “I will seal the Koschnikes.”  My parents said that they didn’t think about it, and they knew that he would be busy at general conference time anyway.  As they were sitting in the sealing room they were told that President Monson had arrived at the temple.  He soon stood before them in the sealing room and said “I promised!”

H

He said “People who have waited so long to be sealed in the temple cannot wait a minute longer.”  When his office told him that the Koschnikes were there, he had then pushed off his other appointments so he could be there to seal them.

R

You hear the stories of when President Monson was a bishop and was diligent in ministering to the many widows in his ward.  Through [my parents' experience] I know that what he said about that was true, because it was similar to what he did for members of the church in East Germany.

J

Did you have friends and family who visited you from the West?

R

Sometimes.  My father’s sister visited.  My grandmother.  Some of our friends.  Most of their other family and friends from Breslau had died in the war.

H

We had friends from our congregation in Mittweida who had left right before the wall went up; two brothers.  They both had married after they left.  They had family in Utah and they came regularly every five years and stayed with us.  They always brought their own toilet paper, because ours was too hard.  They also brought gum and we children were excited to chew it.  It was noted in my father’s Stasi file that he had visitors from the USA.  

J

So your father had a Stasi file?

H

He requested it after the wall fell.  I didn’t read it, but my brother told me what it said.  There were a lot of positive things about our family in it.  They were seen as an upstanding family in the way they lived and how he ran his business. 

J

I spoke with my cousin in Ottendorf-Okrilla, near Dresden, and he said that he read his file and found out that a teacher in his kids’ school was part of the Stasi.

H

There were many in our town who reported to the Stasi.  Where we lived, my family had six kids.  There was a friend of my father who often noted how many children we had.  He would invite us all to fairy tale readings.  My father later found out that he was part of the Stasi.

My father always said that we have nothing to hide.  They can come to church and see what we are doing.

R

There was a good friend who lived near us who would go out and smoke so he could report on us.  

In the congregation we also sometimes had visitors who were supposedly members.  From two meters away they smelled like cigarette smoke.  At that time we were meeting in barracks.  As Aaronic priesthood members we would go around to people over the large floor [with the sacrament].  There was a large brick stove.  A man arrived late who took the last place by the stove and spent most of the time during the meeting asleep.  One time there was a visitor who saw the glass sacrament cups being distributed and he thought that there was schnapps in the little glass. He drank it and spit it out because he then realized it was only water.

J

So it was clear he was not a member.

R

We didn’t have anything to hide.

H

There were church reports that had to be made about our meetings.  They would be sent off to the mission at the end of each month.  Brother Burkhardt, our mission president, told us that when he read the reports they always smelled strongly of cigarette smoke when he received them through the mail and opened them.  [The Stasi had opened them and read them].  He was pretty sure the branch president, my father, wasn’t the one smoking.

R

After the war, some members were directly called on missions for two years.

J

Like Brother Krause. 

H

Two uncles of mine.  Erik.

R

My cousin, Wolfgang. 

They had it very hard.  They had to register as missionaries in each area they went to.  They went door to door and came across communists who complained to the authorities.  They would then go to another area.  It was then forbidden for the church to do missionary work shortly before 1960.

I heard from the brothers who did that, that they had to first write down and turn in their church talks and have them approved by state security, then they could be shared in the congregation.  That was in the 1950s.

J

I wanted to ask - what was it like being in and having to send your children to socialist schools?  How did you contrast what they were taught in school with what they learned at home and in church?

H 

There were the Young Pioneers and the Free German Youth (FDJ).

J

Like the Hitler Youth.

H

In my class of 25, only me and one other student who was Seventh Day Adventist were not Young Pioneers.  All others were Young Pioneers.

My father was asked about it.  He explained that they go to [church] Primary instead and they aren’t interested in being Young Pioneers.

Later (for older children) there was FDJ and Jugendweihe at age 14 which was a replacement for First Communion in the Lutheran Church.  We didn’t do FDJ or Jugendweihe, nor did my children.  When my brother finished 10th grade he wanted to go to Gymnasium, so he did go into the FDJ.  The school director spoke with my father about it, and said he had to be in the FDJ.  He was in it for three years.  The director complained to my father that my brother spoke so much about the church during FDJ activities.  Some of his school friends were baptized.  He was able to get his Abitur (degree) then take further studies to become an electrical engineer, a diploma engineer.  Later on things weren’t as restricted [to be able to receive higher education].

R

For us it was not so [with his family growing up].  

For our children, it was important, as it is important nowadays too, to talk within the family.  It is especially important.  One must speak with your children.

J

And so has President Nelsen recently said that gospel teaching starts in the home.

R

It was very important to explain things to our children and talk about things.  Otherwise they would have believed what they heard in school.  For further studies it was difficult to advance.  Because I was a lathe worker in the army perhaps I could have received a place for further studies, but my factory was very red, very communist, and I had to be recommended by them, to become a master tradesman.  They asked me if I wanted to become a master, and I said yes, of course.  A week later they came to me and said - you are a Christian and are not in the party, so to become a master, you have to be in the party.  I said no, that is not compatible with my faith.  They said, what, that isn’t a problem, what you believe is a separate thing.  I said no, I can’t do that, my conscience forbids it.  I am a member of the church and I can’t accept what you believe in the party, that you don’t believe in God.  They said, sorry, then you can't become a master.

J

You made a good choice - God above the state.

R

I was always blessed.  

H

The government motto was “From school to citizen”, with socialism being taught.  In school the scoring was 1, good,  to 5, bad.  I received 3s and my brother received 1s.  I asked him - how do you get 1s?  He said - You just listen to what the teacher says and just write it down, then you get a 1.  I did that and I got a 1.  We had to say what the teacher said, not my opinion in school.  At home it was different.  [Outside the home] one had to determine where you could say something or not.  It was all about what the party wanted.

R

Our oldest child was with the Young Pioneers and while there she sang a really nice song about pioneers -  that she had learned in [church] Primary!  The teacher was so happy [she said] - I don’t even know that song! 

H

We grew up, but didn’t know it another way.  Our parents had such different experiences before us, and then they were forced into socialism.  They had it harder than us. 

R

And they also protected us with these things.  And they saw what happened when someone said something against socialism and then you didn’t see them again.  We were told what to do; it was a coercive regime.

H

In the vegetable store in Bischofswerda there was a lady who was in line.  She bought sauerkraut and some of the juice fell onto the newspaper and she made a joke about the politician whose picture it fell on.  She was then picked up because of that comment.

We didn’t know a lot of what had happened until 1989. 

J

Did you know church members from other Eastern Bloc countries who came to Germany or who you met while visiting other countries during the GDR era?

R

Yes.  Brother Schneedoefler.  He was from Czechoslovakia where the church was forbidden.  The first time was in 1972 when he came for the dedication of the church house [in Bischofswerda].  He was there with two or three other members from there.  He wasn't allowed to say that he was a member of the church.  That was very hard for the members there.  

H

He didn’t tell his children about the gospel, since he wanted to protect them.

J

Did he come to Germany, simply to be with members for the dedication?  

R

To hear from a member of The Seventy and to receive the sacrament.  He later became our temple president, after the wall fell.  We had a good relationship with him.

H 

During the GDR time we sometimes traveled to Hungary [on vacation].  Walter Krause would look after the members who were scattered around the area.  He gave us an address and told us there was a family who were members.  He asked us to visit them and see how they were doing.  They were a poor married couple with a child who lived in a basement apartment.  They gave us their tithing to pass on.

J

This is when you were a child and your father was making the visit with you?

H

Yes, [the man in Hungary was] Brother Best.

R

[Being a church member] was forbidden after the 1968 uprising.

J

When the Soviets intervened.

R

We traveled in 1968 to Cottbus and saw all over the place was the army, but not the DDR army, only the Russians were sent to Czechoslovakia [to put down the uprising].

In 1989 there was an uprising [in the DDR], but for that one Gorbechov didn’t intervene.

J

He was a good man.

Do you remember when church leaders from the West visited and spoke? Who do you remember?  You already mentioned President Monson.  Who else do you remember?

R

Sure.  Our current prophet, President Nelson.  He dedicated the Chemnitz church house.

Elder Ringger, the Swiss, visited several times.  It's hard to remember all of the names.

H

When someone came they would bring a [West German] mission president as interpreter.  From Hamburg.

J

How did you learn what the church leadership in the West was teaching and how did you stay in touch with the wider church around the world?

H

There is a nice story about President Monson.  He memorized the [church] handbook.  He then arrived and started to write, but then our mission president showed him that they already had a copy.  Someone had smuggled it in and gave it to the mission president.

We would make copies using a typewriter and duplicator paper (7 pieces at a time).  There were many mothers who would do the typing.  So copies were made and then they were bound and distributed to the church units.

I had a penpal in the USA who later went on a mission to West Germany.  We then met for two days in East Berlin.  They arrived very late and they then told us they were detained at the border for over an hour.  They opened their trunk and they had a big stack of Books of Mormon, Family Home Evening Guidebooks,  and bananas.  We transferred them from their car to our car on the Saturday night.  On Sunday their friend's car was searched and nothing was found.

J

When the church had general conference, how did you hear about what was said? 

H

We heard it on the radio, where we were, from a West German station.  Bad quality, so we had to listen closely, and it was already translated.

We heard on the radio that if you wrote you could receive a [vinyl] record of the Tabernacle Choir as a gift.  My brother wrote to request one and we actually received one!  We were so happy.

R

We often received church magazines from Poland, such as Der Stern.  We would get them from visitors from Poland since they were able to receive them there legally.  The wife was a German and a member of the church and married a Pole and was able to remain there.

J 

My aunt came from Elbing [now Elbląg] near Koenigsberg in Prussia, now Poland. 

H

We would take a vacation with cars and a tent and would visit that family and also see the Baltic Sea.  We visited them in Selbongen [now Zełwągi in Poland] and then went to [a lake near there].  There was a branch there, the only branch at that time in Poland - Selbongen [read more about the branch here:  https://rsc.byu.edu/harms-way/selbongen-branch-konigsberg-district].  It is now called Zełwągi.

J

I read about that.

H

[We would visit] the Konitz family.  

J

President Benson went there right after the war ended.

H

The church house was still standing.  It looked like a gym.  We attended there on Sundays.  We slept on their floor.  They were a very strong family, and they had four young sons.  That family then left to West Germany during the GDR time; there were almost no members there.  The father Erik became a patriarch and I told one of their kids the story [of when we would visit them].  They were very strong members in that branch.  They later had a daughter [after they fled].         

J

I understand that most members of the Church in the GDR, including church leaders, had not attended the temple. What was that like and with what perspective do you look back on the construction of the temple in Freiberg in 1985? How did it feel to hear that the temple was being built and then see it happen?

H

It was like a dream.

R

I received a patriarchal blessing from Brother Krause that said that I would receive all of the blessings of the temple.  That was in 1976.  We were puzzled and tried to figure it out.  We thought maybe they would let us travel to Switzerland.  When we heard [I thought,] Super!  At that time we had four of our five children and we traveled there and we were so happy!  The temple was opened in 1985 and was dedicated by President Hinckley who was the First Counselor in the First Presidency.  For the members and for us that was a relief.  Brother Burkhardt was the first Temple President.  He said that all who had a temple recommend should go through as fast as possible, since we don’t know what the communists will do and it could be closed.  

H

We went through and did it all very fast.  We had our whole family with us since they had arranged for childcare, so they brought our kids into the sealing room.  We had to wait since the rooms were so small and there were so many going through.  We had no idea about the temple before that.

Before construction, members were asked to donate for the building of the temple.  After a while they [the church leaders] said to stop, we have enough money!   Members didn’t have a lot but they donated.

We were totally excited.  

J

I understand that Church members typically chose not to become members of the Communist Party and that this limited their educational and professional opportunities. How has this affected you and your families? You talked about that.  Was it also so for other members?

R

There was a sister in our area who wanted to be a teacher.  She was not permitted to pursue such a study path because she wasn’t a member of the party and was a member of the church.  One could have said church is church and party is party, but we were raised [knowing] that you can’t deny your beliefs just so you can receive advantages.

J

Based on your personal experience of making sacrifices to live the Gospel in the GDR, what do you have to say to your posterity who now live in a secular Western world that is moving further and further away from God and the Gospel?

R

The blessing comes only after one first does something.  One must first work and exercise faith and then comes the blessing.  You can’t receive the blessings first.  Exercising faith is always first.

I had many experiences and other members did too [that showed us] that the Lord does not leave us in the lurch.  Even when things look bad and you can’t see your way forward, the Lord always finds us a solution and it works out.  

J

When it says in the scriptures, ‘Prove me now.”

H

[To my posterity I would say:] Hold on!  Money [isn’t where it is at].  We need to prepare ourselves, to hear God.  There is nothing bigger.  

R

My father began to say (after the change) - We will see if it is the right system.  The correct system comes only when the Lord comes.  Now the party reigns, but we will see that the money will then reign.  We see people leave their faith because of money.

H

Those from outside [the church] see our sacrifice [for the Lord and don’t understand], but when we do it willingly it is a joy.

J

What was it like when missionaries from the West came to the GDR in 1988 and missionaries from the GDR were called to the West?

H

They brought cookies!  Such cookies we had not known.

R

Erik Ortlieb’s son went to Argentina on a mission.  [They heard his stories].  He was so excited.

R

The first missionaries came and were so different.  

H

They acted like they were so free and they were funny.  They had such a different outlook on life. 

J

How old were you and your husband when the wall came down in 1989?

H

I was 35 and [he] was 37.  Our children were 11, 10, 8, 5, and 1. 

R

[The change] was in November 1989.  We had not looked at the TV.

H

I went to the Kindergarten [to pick up my children].  Everyone was all stirred up.  I asked what was going on.  They told me that the wall had fallen.  I said you’re crazy!  They said, no it’s true!  I went home and turned on the TV to see if they were right.

R

Her brother left in the middle of the night and crossed into West Berlin.  He just wanted to look, but didn’t want to stay.

Hungary had already opened its border to Austria and many had already crossed.  In Prague in the West German embassy there were so many people on the property.

Genscher, the [West German] Foreign Minister said that everyone could [cross the border] when asked about the demonstrations.  Since the [GDR] had opened the borders they could no longer close them.  They tried to stop them, but the police didn’t do anything since they were in the same boat.  Economically it was already too late anyway. 

The announcer on the news was asked if the borders would immediately be opened.  He said yes, immediately.

H

During the GDR time there was welcome money from the West German government for retirees who came from the East so they had money to spend.  All of the GDR citizens received the money now.

R

We got in our Trabi with all of the kids.  We traveled to Berlin to the border.  It took several hours.  Then we went across the border to West Berlin and for the first time we saw how secured the border was.  To see how much they had done to keep us in.

H

We went to a store and saw the vegetables there.  We said - look at that, what is that?  They aren’t potatoes, they are so rough!  Roland said, I know what they are, I saw on TV they cut them open and they eat them with a spoon!  Really!  They were Kiwis.  They were such funny potatoes!

R 

There I again saw dried figs.  In the 1960s with Walter Ulbricht, he wanted to be a little more similar to the West Germans until Erich Honecker.  Back then there were dried figs, but with Honecker, everything was closed off.

There were oranges, but we only had those at Christmas in the GDR.  Only a kilo (2.2 pounds).

H

With [the birth of] our youngest daughter [in the GDR] we received a special recognition [as a family] from Erich Honecker.  [Roland’s] factory director came, the mayor, the leader of the county, came to us and gave us a gift with children’s items, clothes, and a savings book with 500 Marks in it.  That was a lot of money then.  That was given to us because a fifth child had been born.  It was only allowed if it was from one married couple and they had to be upstanding.

Then there was no GDR anymore and Honecker fled to Chile.

Not everything in the GDR was negative.  They wanted to support families and wanted everyone to have a three children family, at least.  

[They talk about a government program for young couples to encourage them to have three children]. 

R

The [basic] school system was better than it is now.  

H

There was the Stasi, but there were good things.  Basic groceries were very inexpensive.  Rent was cheap.  Utilities were cheap.  If you wanted anything beyond that, it was very expensive.  In the GDR there were no dishwashers.  Everyone was supposed to be the same.  Luxury items were very expensive.  The basics were subsidized by the government.  There were no homeless people.

R

Everyone had work.  Salary-wise there was a gradation, but the wages earned were very similar. A teacher didn’t earn much different than a specialist worker earned.

H

My father, with his own company, earned only a bit more than others, but had to pay up to 80%  in taxes.             

They always had five year plans.  We all wore the same clothes.

R

In most factories there was no motivation to work.  One had one’s money [so there wasn’t an incentive to work harder].  The work leaders thought that way too.  There is no social order that is all bad or all good.  It comes down to where do I have freedom of choice?  With socialism that didn’t exist.

J

What was it like right after the wall fell with your job?

H

I was one of the very few mothers who was able to stay home.  One of the only ones in our apartment block.  After the wall fell, there were a lot more who stayed home because of unemployment. 

R

From 2000 - 3000 employees my factory  [called Fortschritt] went to zero.  They were then unemployed.  At first there was very good unemployment support [from the new government].  Everyone had been used to working all the time, now there was no work to do.  I worked until 1994, but was with another factory, also near Bischofswerda in a fiberglass factory making molds to produce products.

There were many Waendehaelse [procommunists that immediately switched to procapitalists], that didn’t mention they had been high up in the party during the GDR.  Our former factory director and the others in charge shut down the factory.  Those who led things before switched to capitalism.  Our director ended up buying the factory.  Many factories closed because they were no longer economical. What were their products supposed to be used for [now that there were West German products]?  I was informed in 1994 that I was being laid off so I then became unemployed.  I was blessed that I wasn’t unemployed in 1989.

There were many who came from the west as entrepreneurs and started new factories since they received money from the government to build up a factory.  The unemployed came looking for work, but they looked for more specialized workers.  I was employed by some of these new factories but they did things that didn’t make sense and I just would shake my head.  For three to four years they received subsidies for the factories, but when the feed money ran out, they closed the new factories.   

H

And they went back to the west with their pockets full.  They did pay good.  They would employ people for three months, then lay you off and hire others.  The state didn’t do anything about it.

R

I then got more training.  There were opportunities for those who were unemployed to receive that.  Many of the unemployed said they weren’t interested in more training. I said that additional education never hurts you.  The government paid to train me as a plumber.   I also learned CNC programming, the new thing.  I had the new training and the original manual training.  I then worked in different places.  There were factories in Switzerland who would take me at 55, but in eastern Germany one was considered too old.

Our oldest child was in Switzerland and worked as a roofer and earned good wages.  He told us to come to Switzerland and he found opportunities for me to pick from.  He let them know I was 55 and they said it didn’t matter.  What mattered was that I had the old manual training.  At that time our youngest was still at home and I said let’s go and I will pay for the insurance we have to have there.  My wife then suggested that we instead start a daycare for 0 - 3 year old children and stay [in Bischofswerda].  More and more women were working because wages were so little compared to wages in western Germany, so in 2008 we started on [that road].  We both got the required training and certifications and we were then self-employed.  We earned a good living from that until we retired. I had never done that before.  But we could stay in Bischofswerda.

H

And our kids were all grown up. So we had plenty of room in our house to run the daycare.  We turned the first floor into the daycare, and we lived upstairs.

J

[The Koschnikes then ran their daycare business until they both retired.]